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spidangular
03-09-2016, 07:39 PM
There's this post I came across in the Georgia aquarist group on Facebook. The guys said they're gold fish but I'm thinking they could be koi instead. I'm not sure what difference it makes... because to me koi are too much like goldfish and goldfish are the training wheels of the aquarium community- they may seem nice at first but pretty soon they're just ugly and useless and should be discarded when you're serious about cycling/aquariums.
What? I can have a controversial opinion on my own thread, right? ;-)
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/03/09/3a14d8a7866411695936b86cb4e361db.jpg

I had the idea of snagging a dozen or so (or 20?) and adding them to the small retention pond by my office. There doesn't seem to be much else living in the pond.

As a biology major who took limnology, ichthyology, ecology, etc, I'm aware of the fact that it almost never turns out well when somebody basically says "hey let's take this non-native species and introduce it into a semi-controlled setting with no long term plans of controlling system inputs like pond overflow."

Is there anybody that thinks it wouldn't be such a big deal to have a few carp in a retention pond- kinda near a tiny creek (it's orange with pollution looking sludge)


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mountainman36
03-09-2016, 07:46 PM
i took those classes too. Its a non native, so i say no. However DNR classifies them as native because they are established....i still say no. Get some mosquito fish, or something else. It will flood. they will get into that creek. they will get somewhere you didnt intend.
Also - those big fish are goldfish, the others probably are too, but picture is tough to tell. which punlix? this happened because someone dumped their unwanted fish in the pond.....which is why non native goldfish are established in Georgia (and 48 other states i think). selfish folks who dont have the sense or decency or BALLS to dispose of their fish in either a humane way, or turn them into the fish store....or just kill them so that they dont out compete native fishes. Go ask a Florida fisheries biologist how he feels about non native fishes.....not good i would assume.

i am passionate about this. i see it all the time in my pond business. i understand not everyone has a biology degree and that its not common knowledge, but at least think it through....

spidangular
03-09-2016, 07:46 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/03/09/93254d72ccf0b8e65c3027badf0264c7.jpg
Picture taken looking down ~10feet


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HN1
03-09-2016, 08:15 PM
I agree and disagree. I agree that this should NOT be done and as much as I hate to say it, this population should be eradicated for the greater good. The part I disagree with is that the start of this was a lack of decency or fortitude. It was most likely ignorance. This is one of the primary reasons that I cringe every time I see gold fish given away at the local fair.

likestofish
03-09-2016, 09:19 PM
Bread crumbs and a cast net would make short order of them. Or an umbrella dip net with a bit of time. There is a pond at a park near me that has a big school of goldfish as well.

Tropical
03-10-2016, 06:28 AM
I agree and disagree. I agree that this should NOT be done and as much as I hate to say it, this population should be eradicated for the greater good. The part I disagree with is that the start of this was a lack of decency or fortitude. It was most likely ignorance. This is one of the primary reasons that I cringe every time I see gold fish given away at the local fair.

Interesting, I didn't think they had that here. Never seen anything like it myself, only read the horror stories of what happens to the ones that aren't won....

AAAA should do something about it! I've seen in other cities, they've convinced them to use ghost shrimp instead, and those guys are equally cheap and are much better off living in a gallon of water!

Mog Carns
03-10-2016, 07:56 AM
I'll take the dissenting point of view, then.


The fact is that goldfish and koi are established and barring some mass extinction event, not a single thing is going to change that. Anything that escapes the pond is going to end up somewhere with goldfish already there. The goldfish in the pond are doing valuable service, keeping the plants trimmed and the insect population (mosquitoes) in proper check.

I think someone mentioned the mosquitofish... if memory serves, that is ALSO an introduced species for the same purpose.

If you were going to stop the introduction, or slow the spread, of an invasive species... your sympathies have some merit. Even if you were slowing the numbers, your sympathies would have merit. However, it is a zero sum game. Any of these that would escape would take the place of goldfish already there. A place that supports 20 goldfish does not suddenly support 25 goldfish. If it did, they would already have bred to 25 goldfish. The goldfish is no less edible to predators, and food supplies are finite.




Before you head off on the wrong tangent...

I am not unaware of the ecological disaster exotic species can create. Amazon Pacu transported to New Zealand in the 60s account for 90% of the species in the river today, and have become carnivores. Terrible.

I am saying you are already way to late to the party to change that. Killing 100 pacu does not bring back 100 natives; it makes room for 100 more juvenile pacu.



My point is... if you changed "goldfish in retaining pond" to "kudzu in ditch", do you have the same reaction?

spidangular
03-10-2016, 08:35 AM
Lol kudzu! Thank for everybody's reply so far!


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Tangfan
03-10-2016, 09:12 AM
My view on the subject is probably more fluid - not particular happy about it, but also understand we cannot stop it at this time.

Goldfish in a pond with some native predators, like large mouth bass, typically do not fair that well. Their very nature of being orange in color make them highly visible to the predator and they are soon part of the life cycle. This is why it is illegal to use goldfish as live bait while fishing. To me, the greater concern of invasive species are more along the lines of the predatory fish themselves, like snakeheads. These new predators (similar to the Pacu in New Zealand) are displacing the native species (Carp in the Mississippi are another of these that come to mind).

I am glad to see that some of these new invasive species are finally getting some predation from Humans - Snakehead is beginning to be served in some restaurants based on some of the food network programs I watch - and are not continued to be viewed as a garbage fish not worthy of eating by most people in this country.

I am sure I will get some interesting comments back on this one.

mountainman36
03-10-2016, 10:21 AM
I'll take the dissenting point of view, then.


The fact is that goldfish and koi are established and barring some mass extinction event, not a single thing is going to change that. Anything that escapes the pond is going to end up somewhere with goldfish already there. The goldfish in the pond are doing valuable service, keeping the plants trimmed and the insect population (mosquitoes) in proper check.

I think someone mentioned the mosquitofish... if memory serves, that is ALSO an introduced species for the same purpose.


My point is... if you changed "goldfish in retaining pond" to "kudzu in ditch", do you have the same reaction?

mosquito fishes are native to georgia - two species - gambusia affinis and holbrooki. they are native to a lot of places, but yes, they have been introduced on 6 of the 7 continents. however, generally speaking, they are not as detrimental to native species as goldfish or other larger fishes. yes gambusia eat other fish babies, and remove food sources that other fishes could eat, but generally their impacts are minor.

the same could be said for goldfish, but they get a lot bigger and do eat other fry more frequently, and more specifically they eat the eggs. Again, not to the magnitude that trout or pacu are doing.

As for the kudzu - no, i wouldnt have the same reaction because i didnt study the effects of kudzu in college. i do know that it is easier to eradicate, and it actually DOES serve a purpose, that a lot of our native plants can not. Not the same with goldfish. they are a replacement of a native option.

either way, this is illustrative of the fact, or ignorance, of others. to me, ignorance is tantamount to lack of decency or fortitude. i saw a person on one of the facebook groups talk about flushing her mean angelfish - "at least it would have a chance at survival" she said. THAT is the type of stuff that shows ignorance, yes, but also, not thinking it through. have the decency to actually think about what you are doing. i can forgive it sometimes, but a lot of it is folks just not wanting to put forth the effort to find the fish a decent home. again, i suppose not everyone knows that goldfish didnt come from the local lake or river...but again...do some research and think it through....

Mog Carns
03-11-2016, 07:39 AM
I did not pick Kudzu at random.

The stories that Kudzu was brought to the south to prevent erosion of previous plantations in the post war era is actually revisionist history. I heard it my whole life too. However, it does not really pass the brain test... kudzu fields are kudzu fields, nothing else is going to grow there. It will keep dirt at the top of the hill instead of the bottom, but that was hardly anyone's concern in the 1860s. It was imported pre war as an ornamental and has escaped... exactly like the goldfish. Now it is iconic.




And you are correct. It is ignorance. I can completely see a Publix manager facing a stinking, weed choked, and mosquito filled retaining pond run down to the PetSmart and buy up the feeder goldfish to throw in there. I might know it is wrong NOW... but a few years ago I would have considered it a great idea. To be honest, before we heard Michael Wolfe talk, I was fairly certain that the North American fishes, with a few exceptions, were the ugliest and most uninteresting fishes on the planet. So, even if you had told me that putting goldfish in the pond was going to wipe out some other NA fish, I would not have cared a whit.

Education is a wonderful thing. I will change minds, literally. But if your march starts out with the goal to go up there and kill all the pretty goldfish, you are only going to be met with hostility.

mountainman36
03-11-2016, 09:38 PM
I did not pick Kudzu at random.

The stories that Kudzu was brought to the south to prevent erosion of previous plantations in the post war era is actually revisionist history. I heard it my whole life too. However, it does not really pass the brain test... kudzu fields are kudzu fields, nothing else is going to grow there. It will keep dirt at the top of the hill instead of the bottom, but that was hardly anyone's concern in the 1860s. It was imported pre war as an ornamental and has escaped... exactly like the goldfish. Now it is iconic.




And you are correct. It is ignorance. I can completely see a Publix manager facing a stinking, weed choked, and mosquito filled retaining pond run down to the PetSmart and buy up the feeder goldfish to throw in there. I might know it is wrong NOW... but a few years ago I would have considered it a great idea. To be honest, before we heard Michael Wolfe talk, I was fairly certain that the North American fishes, with a few exceptions, were the ugliest and most uninteresting fishes on the planet. So, even if you had told me that putting goldfish in the pond was going to wipe out some other NA fish, I would not have cared a whit.

Education is a wonderful thing. I will change minds, literally. But if your march starts out with the goal to go up there and kill all the pretty goldfish, you are only going to be met with hostility.

yup...but if we educate them that we are killing all the pretty goldfish so the pretty and native fishes will live, then they wont be so hostile...and we dont have to kill them...we can find homes. its not about whats pretty - you say you are ore receptive to native fishes because they are pretty.....i m not arguing that or saying thats an issue. but to me, its about what its RIGHT. or scientifically accurate. However i realize by my logic we shouldnt have cows in America, so i know its not perfect, but we dont farm goldfish to eat......Im not so sure about the 1860s on kudzu, but ok...and back then they DID need erosion control...look that up too. all the cotton fields are not so good for topsoil...thus the red clay all over georgia. the topsoil washed away.

either way itsa a good discussion to have. now we know that goldfish are not native...and tossing some in a local pond isnt a good idea.

Neokoi
03-13-2016, 04:13 PM
couple of young bass will take care of the goldfish.

michael wolfe
03-14-2016, 09:08 PM
Longnose gar in that pond would be very interesting... they are large and very visible... people could easily see them and they would definitely lower the number of goldfish.